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hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex

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Offline Pringles1

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Re: hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex
« Antwort #60 am: 16.05.2020 15:35 »
Now that I haven't worked in the amp for a day, where do you recommend that I start again to check the amp?

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Offline Laurent

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Re: hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex
« Antwort #61 am: 17.05.2020 21:54 »
Hi Jaime,

Sorry, I didn't see your post yesterday...

I rechecked your measurements.
If those are right (the last ones at bottom of page 3), the first thing to look at, is the output stage.  The swing out of the tubes compared to the input, does not match. The amplification factor (mu) of the 6V6 should lay by about 15-20 with that wiring. Here you have only 3.
One item could lay at the feedback, but you checked the resistor value. Recheck all the wiring of this area as well as the voltages.

Just for understanding: which dummy resistor do you use and where/how do you connect it?

Laurent

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Offline Pringles1

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Re: hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex
« Antwort #62 am: 17.05.2020 22:12 »
I use a 4,4 Ohm 10 W dummy resistor solder  to a 6,3 plug and I swith on to speaker 4 Ohms entry, is it OK?

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Offline Laurent

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Re: hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex
« Antwort #63 am: 18.05.2020 19:13 »
Hi,

10W is definitely too low. 2 6V6 in Push-pull, will deliver 15-20W. As the resistor has probably no heat sink, I would take a 50 W as minimum.

Laurent

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Offline Pringles1

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Re: hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex
« Antwort #64 am: 20.05.2020 12:51 »
NEW MEASUREMENTS!!


WITHOUT SIGNAL

At home 220.1 V (AC)


V1      Pin 1: 186 V
   Pin 3: 1.71 V
   Pin6: 175 V
   Pin 8: 1.42 V
V2   Pin 1: 235V
   Pin 3: 1.68 V
   Pin 6: 220 V
   Pin 8: 1.55 V
V3   Pin 3: 378 V
   Pin 4: 376 V
V4   Pin 3: 377 V
   Pin 4: 376 V

B1: 378 V
B2: 376 V
B3: 328 V
B4: 319 V


BIAS: V3: 17.4 mA
             V4: 26.1 mA
The 6V6 tubes, in theory, are matched, but is the difference acceptable?

 
WITH SIGNAL

Signal: 0.058    Dummy resistor: 8.9 Ohm 50 W

BLAST and all   HALF                  FULL
Stage        Input     Output              Input    Output     
V1a          0,058     2,34                    0.058   2.34
Blast         0,049     0,33                   0.41   0.41                             
V1b           0,05       1,5                     0.25   6.7

V2a         0.058      2,0                   1.64   20.1
V2b         0,029     2.0                     0.65   18.0
   
V3  Pin3: 20                                      75.5
      Pin4: 0.5                                   3.7
      Pin5: 2.0                                   20.0

v4     Pin3: 20.5                      75.7
      Pin4: 0.5                                 5.5   
      Pin5: 1.9                                18

Speakers:
J5  (AC)     1.8                                    6.8
J4  (AC)     1.2                                    4.7
J3  (AC)       0.9                                     3.3


what do you think?
Thanks,

J

« Letzte Änderung: 20.05.2020 12:57 von Pringles1 »

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Offline Laurent

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Re: hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex
« Antwort #65 am: 21.05.2020 17:02 »
Hi,

At first sight almost everything seems to be ok. The DC values are on track. The AC values also, apart from the output swing out of both the 6V6. I can't understand why you get such a low swing. The input at the 6V6 is for my taste a --- low but that can lay at a lower gain of the PI tube. Anyway, your problem is at the output stage. The PI seems to do his job in term of bringing a signal to the 6V6.

The difference of idle current is surely quite high but should not be an issue. Anyway, matched tubes live their own life after they are running under real conditions. Matching is mostly done at 1 single point of measurement. This does not indicate whether the other matched tubes have a very near characteristic. Anyway, this should not be the problem of your low output power.

If we assume that your tubes are both new and matched, the probability that both are nearly dead is very low - these are not sensitive transistors.
That means that this low output swing out of the tubes is limited through (maybe) an odd reflected impedance from the secondary winding of the OT to the primary of the OT, which is connected to the 6V6. As you seem to have wired the OT properly & your output jacks are wired the proper way, the OT must get checked.

You have the choice to unwire it completely or to leave it in place as is. Just remove the 6V6 in this latter case, in order to make sure that none of the wires is connected to anything.
But you should unwire the CT, in order to make sure, that you have no connection to the supply rail. Secure it and make sure you can access it for measurement.
Then:
1- Take the datasheet of the OT from the shop product page
2- Measure all DC resistances and compare them with the datasheet. Are they all in the ballpark where they should be?
3- If everything OK, we can move to the AC test. Connect the signal generator to the secondary at the 16 Ohm jack.
4- Then feed a simple 1V signal.
4- Check at the primary what you get between plate-CT-plate ? The plate-plate measurement gives you in this case the turn ratio of the transformer. For this OT at the 16 Ohm, you should get around 22V at the primary.
5- If ok, move the signal generator to the 8 & 4 Ohm taps. You should get around 32V and 45V between the plates. Also check what you get between the plates and the CT.

If everything still ok, then we could feed 5V and repeat to see, what you measure. But first make the measurements and post them, so we can see, what you get.
But if everything is fine, I have no clue, what happens...

Laurent

EDIT: having had another trouble in the past with a cold solder joint at the CT, maybe try to check this one first, even if your DC measurements seem to be ok.

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Offline Pringles1

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Re: hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex
« Antwort #66 am: 21.05.2020 18:52 »
Thanks, Laurent!

I desolder the secondary  winding, desconnect the CT white wire and pull-out the 6V6 tubes and the measurements:

secondary  OT
pink-black   0.2 Ohm
pink-brown 0.1 Ohm
brown-grey 0.2 Ohm

Primary OT

white- blue 86.3 Ohm
white-brown 88.5

Are there any problem in the secondary OT?
I attach the OT datasheet.

J

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Offline Laurent

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Re: hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex
« Antwort #67 am: 21.05.2020 20:18 »
I think it should be ok at the primary. Secondary is difficult to measure without proper equipment.
Let check the AC behaviour now.

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Offline Pringles1

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Re: hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex
« Antwort #68 am: 21.05.2020 20:54 »
done!

[Signal 1V (AC) secondary OT 16 Ohm
Primary OT
White-blue (CT-plate)       4.63 V (AC)
White-brown (CT-plate)   4.64 V (AC)
Blue-brown (plate-plate)  8.85 V (AC)

Signal 1V (AC) secondary OT 8 Ohm
Primary OT
White-blue (CT-plate)       3.71 V (AC)
White-brown (CT-plate)   3.74 V (AC)
Blue-brown (plate-plate)  7.01 V (AC)

Signal 1V (AC) secondary OT 4 Ohm
Primary OT
White-blue (CT-plate)       2.88 V (AC)
White-brown (CT-plate)   2.85 V (AC)
Blue-brown (plate-plate)  5.47 V (AC)
« Letzte Änderung: 21.05.2020 21:06 von Pringles1 »

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Offline Laurent

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Re: hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex
« Antwort #69 am: 21.05.2020 21:33 »
If I'm not wrong, there is something really odd there...
You should get on the primary the approximative values I wrote above. This is not the case for the specs I roughly evaluated.
Maybe somebody can confirm that? Robert, you gave already a lot of advices, what do you think?

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Offline Pringles1

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Re: hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex
« Antwort #70 am: 21.05.2020 21:42 »
To confirm that the measurements have been made correctly and I have not made any mistakes ...
I have connected the signal to the desoldering secondary wiring directly and measured the primary voltages by removing the valves and disconnecting the white CT wire, is it right?

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Offline Laurent

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Re: hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex
« Antwort #71 am: 21.05.2020 22:25 »
 :urlaub:Yes, perfect.
To exclude all potential issues linked to the sockets, you can desolder the 2 wires left (plates) and repeat the AC measurements. If they meet the same values as before for the first set of measurement, then this is like it is. The OT seems to have an issue. I explain you afterwards why I say that.
« Letzte Änderung: 21.05.2020 22:30 von Laurent »

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Offline Pringles1

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Re: hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex
« Antwort #72 am: 21.05.2020 23:04 »
Laurents, the same after desolder the primary wires blue and brown...

[Signal 1V (AC) secondary OT 16 Ohm
Primary OT
White-blue (CT-plate)       4.6 V (AC)
White-brown (CT-plate)   4.5 V (AC)
Blue-brown (plate-plate)  8.7 V (AC)

[Signal 1V (AC) secondary OT 8 Ohm
Blue-brown (plate-plate)  7.0 V (AC)

[Signal 1V (AC) secondary OT  Ohm
Blue-brown (plate-plate)  5.5 V (AC)

Thanks,

J

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Offline Laurent

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Re: hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex
« Antwort #73 am: 21.05.2020 23:15 »
So, in the attachment you will see why it cannot work.
Your OT seems to have a defect.
According to this state, the reflected load is about 300-500 Ohms !! No power out, but not good for the tubes either.

The theory behind the table in attachment:
The voltage relationship U1/U2 (1=primary, 2=secondary) is equal to the turns ratio N1/N2 (let speak about an ideal OT).
In the datasheet, this ratio is not given. We can calculate it from Z1/Z2, as Z1/Z2=(N1/N2)^2 as an approximation - fair enough.
This is what I did in the excel file. I did this small table long time ago to check also an OT. ON the right hand side, I integrated your measurements and you see the result of reflected load compared to the specs.

The OT seems to have a problem.
Before having tested anything with your small 10W resistor for this thread, did you run the amp without load? Because you had this trouble before the first measurements at full blast.

If you have the components, you can also check the OT for an internal short, I attach you the doc. But the OT needs to be changed apparently  :(
At least the root cause is found. Do not give up!! Keep strong and positive, that could be worse !!

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Offline Laurent

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Re: hohe Spannungen im Verstärker and hummm BFlex
« Antwort #74 am: 21.05.2020 23:27 »
And here this is what I get in the spice simulation, adjusting the OT so that I match the measurements you just made...
This is exactly what you measured 2 days ago: 6,8Vrms at the 16 Ohms output jack. I matched the signal level at the input of the 6V6.