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Magnatone Vibrato mit der Wild 13 projekte

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Offline kvdmeulen900

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Magnatone Vibrato mit der Wild 13 projekte
« am: 27.11.2018 11:22 »
Hallo allen!

Um zu beginnen, ein kurze einführung. Ich komme aus die Niederlande und mein Deutsch soll warscheinlich vol mit Fehler sein, aber ich werde mein Bestes geben mich verständlich zu machen. Auch soll ich der beschreibung von mein idee/projekte auf Englisch posten.

Zuerst baute ich die Wild 13 für einen Freund mit einigen Mods (einschließlich der von Twagner, Link zu seinem Beitrag hier).
Der Ton der Wild 13 gefällt mir sehr, besonders mit diesen Mods, dies ist ein sehr vielseitiger Verstärker - ich würde diese Mods jedem empfehlen, um sich zu bewerben!

Meine Idee ist es, eine Magnatone-Vibrato-Schaltung in eine Wild-13-Schaltung einzubauen.
Sie denken wahrscheinlich: Warum eine Vibrato-Schaltung in einen 3-Watt-Verstärker? Nun, ich wohne in einer kleinen Wohnung und der Ton der Wild 13 gefällt mir wirklich, aber ich möchte auch schon lange ein Magnatone-artiges Vibrato.
Ich frage mich, ob dies mit dem standardmäßigen 30VA-Transformator, der mit dem Wild-13-Kit geliefert wird, möglich ist, oder ob ich einen schwereren Transformator verwenden muss. Ich habe an diesen 50VA-Netztransformator gedacht, da sich in der Schaltung zwei zusätzliche Röhren für die Vibrato-Schaltung befinden. Der 50VA liefert jedoch eine höhere Spannung, die logischerweise auch eine höhere Spannung in der PSU verursacht. Meine Frage ist, ob dies in der Schaltung der Wild-13 möglich ist oder ob ich bestimmte Dinge verbessern muss.

Nun, ich habe eine Magnatone 450-Diagramm verwendet, um die Vibrato-Schaltung auszurichten und die Punkte zu markieren, die meiner Meinung nach mit der Wild 13 verbunden sein sollten.
Meiner Meinung nach sollte der grüne Kreis mit dem Verstärkungspotentiometer der Wild 13 und der blaue Kreis mit C1 der Wild 13 verbunden sein. Vielleicht belasse ich den 0,022 uF-Kondensator in der Nähe des blauen Kreises im Magnatone-Diagramm, da er in Reihe liegt C1 der Wild 13 ergibt eine geringere Kapazität. Ich denke auch, dass es einen Kopplungskondensator zwischen dem Verstärkungspotentiometer und dem grünen Kreis (dem Eingang der ersten Röhre in der Vibratoschaltung) geben sollte.
Hier ist das Schema der Wild 13.

Und hier das Schema der Magnatone 450.



Was denken Sie? Denk ich in die richtige Richtung oder mache ich hier viele Fehler?



-ENGLISCHE VERSION-

Hello everyone!

I live in the Netherlands and my German isn't as good as my English so I'll post my project idea in English as well.

First of all, I built a Tube-Town Wild 13 (3 watt Orange Tiny Terror clone) kit with some mods for a friend of mine. I added a voice switch which changed the character of the amp a little and I added a bright switch. These mods made it a really versatile amp and I would recommend them to anyone who'd want to build a Tiny Terror clone.

Now as for the next project I want to pursue; I want to build the same 3 watt amplifier and include the Magnatone 450 vibrato circuit. Why not go straight for a Magnatone clone or incorporate the vibrato circuit into a higher wattage amp I might hear you think? Well, that's because I really, really dig the tone that came out of the Wild 13 design and I live in a small apartment. This 3 watt amp is perfect for home recording and getting sweet tube tones without angering the neighbors too much. I've also tried putting a vibrato effect (like the Madbean Harbinger One on vibrato mode) in front of the amp but that doesn't quite achieve the type of vibrato tones I'm after. Also, when I employ some gain/overdrive on the amp the vibe tones get a little messy. That's also why I think a (tube based) vibrato circuit would work better AFTER the gain stage rather than before.

Anyway, I've been looking at the Wild 13 schematic and the Magnatone 450 vibrato circuit schematic and came up with an idea. I have a little bit of knowledge about tube amps but am uncertain if I know enough to be able to decide if my idea is possible at all without some modification, which is why I came here for advice.

My idea is to put the Magnatone 450 vibrato circuit in between the Wild 13's gain potentiometers wiper and C1 (schematic of the Wild 13 can be found here).
I've edited a schematic of the Magnatone 450 to outline the vibrato circuit and to mark the points of the vibrato circuit which I think should be connected to the Wild 13's gain pot and C1 in green and blue respectively. I'm probably going to omit the 0.022uF cap near the blue marker since putting that 0.022uF cap in series with the 0.047uF cap of the Wild 13 would result in a lower capacitance. I've also thought it might be necessary to add a capacitor (something like a 0.1uF or 0.047uF) in between the Wild 13's gain pot's wiper and the green marker on the Magnatone schematic.
I'm also wondering if I could simply feed the vibrato circuit's tubes with the same powersupply which is feeding V1 and V2 of the Wild 13. I'm planning to use this Power Supply, which could safely supply a 50 watt amp with power.


There's another thing as well. For the Wild 13 amp I already built, I used a 30VA Toroidal transformer which supplies 200VAC @ 0,01 ampères to the Power Supply I linked earlier and supplies 6,3 volts @ 1,5 ampères to the tube heaters. However I think that by adding the two additional tubes of the vibrato circuit to the power supply, the transformer might not be able to cut it... I might be wrong though. I feel I should upgrade to a heftier transformer - I was thinking about this 50VA transformer. The 50VA transformer can supply double the heater current of the 30VA transformer, however it also puts out more volts and a little more current (250 volts @ 0,012 ampères to be exact). Am I going to run into troubles if I feed the Power Supply and the combined circuit of the Wild 13 and Magnatone vibrato with a higher voltage? Should I up the wattage of some parts or should the ratings be fine? The wattage of the resistors are 1W Metal Oxide unless otherwise stated (regarding the Wild 13's schematic).

What do you guys think? Am I making a lot of mistakes or am I thinking in the right direction?
« Letzte Änderung: 27.11.2018 11:27 von kvdmeulen900 »

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sjhusting

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Re: Magnatone Vibrato mit der Wild 13 projekte
« Antwort #1 am: 27.11.2018 14:12 »
Hi  -

I have a few questions:

1) What is your name?
2) What is your favorite color?
3) What is the air flight velocity of an unladen African swallow?


Sorry ...

2) What are you going to use for the varistors? These are unobtanium. I assume the new Magnatone had some custom made, but otherwise, I have only rarely seen the originals anywhere, and for great cost, and as someone with a great interest in the old Magnatones (I have had extensive use of a couple of M13 suitcase amps) I've been looking for a long time. Ted Weber was working on a Maggie, and had reverse-engineered some orignial varistors, but he died before the project was complete. You can't just use any varistor. The circuit is dependent on the (from a modern standpoint) poor performance of the originals. Nobody makes anything this "bad" anymore.

Here's info on the varistors and possible subs: https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=15073.msg182155#msg182155

As a side note, the pedal that comes closest to the Magnatone vibrato is the old Danelectro Cool Cat Vibe.

As another side note, if I were to go to the trouble and expense of building a Maggie Vibrato circuit (which is something I've toyed with for years) I would make it standalone, for use in an effect loop.  Then you can bask in the light of true pitch-shifting vibrato regardless of amp or situation. Just sayin'.


steven


« Letzte Änderung: 27.11.2018 14:20 von Puddnhaid Husting »

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Offline kvdmeulen900

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Re: Magnatone Vibrato mit der Wild 13 projekte
« Antwort #2 am: 27.11.2018 15:07 »
Hi!

1. My name is Kerin. What's your name? :)
2. My favorite color depends on what I feel like and what subject it is. For instance, with amps it's burgundy red, with guitars it's midnight wine red and with cars it's burgundy red or midnight purple. Regarding effect units I like all shades, but they should fit the effect's purpose. A spring reverb for instance I would like to be cream-white or seafoam green.
3. About 40 km/h.


2. I was thinking of the Littelfuse substitutes that have been advised on numerous pages. I know they're pretty much unobtanium, but I'm willing to take the gamble and try various types of varistors and try to get the vibrato tone by trial and error.
However, your suggestion of making a standalone circuit for use in an FX loop sparks my interest. During my search on the Magnatone Vibrato circuit I stumbled across something Merlin Blencowe (valvewizard.co.uk) designed called the Vibrotron. Here's a link to the schematic. I'm not sure if this would produce the same kind of lush vibrato tones the Maggie produces, but I'm willing to give it a shot (for science!). I found the circuit in this old AX84.com thread, unfortunately links to soundclips appear to be down. Seeing as you've been looking for a long time, I'm sure you've stumbled across this concept as well.
Technically, inducing vibrato through other means than using varistors should yield comparable results in theory, right?

I've also got another idea, I was thinking of perhaps making a full tube-based UniVibe (set to Vibrato mode) to come close to the Magnatone vibrato if all else fails. Then again, I'm unsure if I could find Hi-Dark (200M ohms) photocells which could handle the voltages a tube puts out...
« Letzte Änderung: 27.11.2018 15:15 von kvdmeulen900 »

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Offline bluesfreak

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Re: Magnatone Vibrato mit der Wild 13 projekte
« Antwort #3 am: 27.11.2018 20:13 »
As per my information the MOVs used in modern Magnatone Amps are Metrosil 100-P/W/921 rated at 100V/1mA while vintage Maggies used a 80V@.05mA rated device from 
Kanthal Globar (233BNR-32). Issue is that today nobody manufactures ZnO MOVs anymore, they are all based on SiC which has a different behavior and rating.

just my 2c

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Offline kvdmeulen900

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Re: Magnatone Vibrato mit der Wild 13 projekte
« Antwort #4 am: 28.11.2018 08:20 »
Fair point bluesfreak. I figured my dreams about cloning the Magnatone vibrato were too good to be true...

However, I'm now thinking of either making Merlin Blencowe's Vibrotron or a full tube-based UniVibe based on the Vintage Vibe (schematic here). I'm leaning more towards the Vibrotron because that's full tube... what do you guys think? Does the Vibrotron look like a good candidate to produce some nice vibrato tones? According to Merlin in his AX84 thread, it should have the same workings as Magnatone's vibrato circuit, but without the hard-to-source varistors.

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sjhusting

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Re: Magnatone Vibrato mit der Wild 13 projekte
« Antwort #5 am: 28.11.2018 08:49 »
Fair point bluesfreak. I figured my dreams about cloning the Magnatone vibrato were too good to be true...

However, I'm now thinking of either making Merlin Blencowe's Vibrotron or a full tube-based UniVibe based on the Vintage Vibe (schematic here). I'm leaning more towards the Vibrotron because that's full tube... what do you guys think? Does the Vibrotron look like a good candidate to produce some nice vibrato tones? According to Merlin in his AX84 thread, it should have the same workings as Magnatone's vibrato circuit, but without the hard-to-source varistors.

Yeah, I tried to make this point.

Much as I love this stuff, I have a hard time differentiating between tremolo and vibrato. The clips on DIY stompboxes sounds more like a Fender "harmonic vibrato" to me - where highs and lows are split and the modulation on them is 180 degrees out-of-phase - except a real harmonic vibrato is more lush (based on the clips).

The Merlin clips are no longer available, so I can't judge there, but he is of course one of those guys I am more likely to assume he did what he said he did.

If you can find an old Hammond AO-41 amplifier, you can use the saturable reactor - check this out - https://sluckeyamps.com/warbler/warbler.htm
I can hear the pitch-shifting on this one.

steven


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Offline kvdmeulen900

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Re: Magnatone Vibrato mit der Wild 13 projekte
« Antwort #6 am: 28.11.2018 09:05 »
Yeah, I tried to make this point.

Much as I love this stuff, I have a hard time differentiating between tremolo and vibrato. The clips on DIY stompboxes sounds more like a Fender "harmonic vibrato" to me - where highs and lows are split and the modulation on them is 180 degrees out-of-phase - except a real harmonic vibrato is more lush (based on the clips).

The Merlin clips are no longer available, so I can't judge there, but he is of course one of those guys I am more likely to assume he did what he said he did.

If you can find an old Hammond AO-41 amplifier, you can use the saturable reactor - check this out - https://sluckeyamps.com/warbler/warbler.htm
I can hear the pitch-shifting on this one.

steven

Haha sorry, I'm not one to quickly give up but more research and your guys' comments had me stumped eventually. Worth a shot I suppose.

I understand what you mean. I guess I'll go for Merlins Vibrotron, I'm willing to take a shot at it even though the clips are no longer available - the comments in the thread seem pretty enthusiastic about the achieved sound though.

Yes! I've stumbled across that option as well this morning and have already done some searching for an AO-41 or an AO-47, but have not yet come across any. I've also tried searching for substitutes for the saturable reactor but I've read in a few places that these components were specifically designed for their purpose so the probability of finding a substitute is next to zero I suppose...

If I go for Merlins Vibrotron as a standalone unit, could I safely feed it with the 30VA Toroidal transformer? I know it puts out 200 volts which is 50 more than Merlin used for his unit, but I'm unsure whether it will affect the circuit badly - I'm a bit new to the tube technology and have limited knowledge but I am eager to learn :)